I am SO fascinated by the WSJ article about TikTok influencing financial feelings of dread- not only that, but as a graduating senior in college, I have seen this weird and completely unrealistic mindset that all graduates should be thriving immediately postgrad, with enough money from their first jobs ever to buy expensive drinks to instagram, expensive apartments to instagram, expensive Revolve dresses to instagram... you get the drift. TikTok and IG IMO have almost made "the struggle/grind" an unflattering, not-to-be-spoken-of thing. I was so shocked to learn that so many of the girls I've seen seemingly living it up postgrad have DEBT from SHOPPING. I don't have TikTok, so I largely see this play out on Instagram, but nonetheless this is a conversation I have had with my parents and friends and I think it ties in perfectly with the fact that todays day and age is the best and most safe time to live in history, and yet social media portrays the exact opposite. Social media has constantly been said to be fake and not real, but what it's doing is creating a false reality that people begin to live in as opposed to the real world. So interesting (and scary)!
If it makes you feel more sane, the year after I graduated I worked at New York Magazine, only ate oatmeal and ramen, was constantly walking my loose change to the Whole Foods coin machine (don't know if it's still there) and once had to get out of a cab from a guy's apartment uptown the morning after I slept over because I realized I couldn't pay the fare.
I also didn't have a credit card until a few years ago -- THANK GOD.
People who thrive have content that performs better. It's a chicken/egg situation. So of course we see that on our newsfeed more than like... normal job, normal income, normal mental health state.
Love this- oatmeal for dinner always! Great point about content because I definitely agree, and then I think it’s trickling down into “normal” girls who think they also need to perpetuate influencers which is when it becomes more concerning I think! I could talk for hours about this, like how I’m always trying to convince people to be babysitting on the side (nontaxable money, easy, flexible hours, eating other people’s food) and for some reason it’s seen as like a failure to do this lol
I've been wondering about this in regard to what seems to me like unrealistic expectations about which NYC neighborhoods post-grads should be able to afford and live in! So many people I know who are under 27 in NYC feel like they have to live in the LES, West Village, East Village, and feel like it's a personal failing when they can't afford it. Whereas after I graduated in 2013, it was normal/expected to live either very far north or east uptown, or out in BedStuy, Bushwick, Crown Heights, or South Slope. If people did live downtown, it was in a flex with four roommates and a living room subdivided by curtains. The financial pressure to be able to afford these neighborhoods must be crippling.
I think this was always the case, and it's just more in our faces now because people post about every aspect of their life in return for dopamine hits (views, likes, etc.)
Great interview - David’s comments on BS jobs and career advancement. A lot of people I know are going through this existential crisis of advancement isn’t really what I want/this isn’t really advancement/this is BS but I still need a paycheck/this is BS and I need life fulfillment conundrum cycle and it’s insightful to read it written about in this framework. Also appreciate the commentary on importance of social life outside of work.
had to pause reading to talk shit about pasta louise. while their pre made to-go fresh pasta is great, i one time went there for lunch and ordered a lasagna. this lasagna had RAW TOMATOES INSIDE. i dont even know how thats possible. big slimy raw tomatoes inside an otherwise deeply mediocre lasagna. as a lasagna lover i was deeply offended. i haven't been back since, because those people are clearly psychos
Okay -- It's really a longer conversation better for a podcast, because I'm just going to jump from A to Z in sharing this, and leave out the B - C - D of steps it takes to get to this conclusion, but... as BS jobs proliferate, they reinforce the "career advancement" myth and it takes high-qualified people out of the workforce for other jobs -- not just the machinist or blue-collar jobs I mentioned, but jobs that really benefit society when smart people fill them (like teachers, social workers, etc.). There's not a lot of "advancement" in those jobs. I think the lack of perceived advancement is a big reason (of many reasons) why those jobs are underpaid. It's because the vast majority of people going into them are just not the best – I'd argue we're actually pushing the least best people into those careers (which will have insane repercussions for all us over the coming years). If the smartest people were going into these critical jobs, the system would make room to pay them more. Most people think that those jobs are underpaid because we undervalue them, or that the best people don't go into them because they are underpaid, but I would argue that the best people don't go into them is *why* they are underpaid is just as valid. Again, SO MUCH causality assumed in my answer, but it's all related to the same phenomenon of how Gen Z kids want to be a Vice President on the 2nd day of work and constantly promoted and praised. Jobs like social work and teaching don't have the same kind of career progression and we (society) have taught everyone that jobs without advancement are worse than jobs where you can climb to a higher rung. And that is directly tied to the proliferation of bullshit jobs. Another thing we can blame the boomers for. They really are the worst generation. 🙂
I’ve worked at Google for 5+ years and both agree and disagree with your points! Working at a company this size, there are inevitably people who coast their way through. On the other hand, it’s an insanely competitive place to work and in my experience it’s genuinely rare that people slack off (and get away with it). Saying half of people don’t need to be there as their salaries would better serve shareholders stung a bit given the sweeping layoffs the company has had over the last two years that shareholders (myself included!!) have profited from. It is an incredible place to work and I am grateful for the opportunity, but we are not immune to the fact that Google is a mega corp and will do whatever means necessary to please shareholders - they are already well acclimated with this practice. Other than that I enjoyed your perspective on things :)
Yikes. I understand you're skipping steps here but pay and status follow the gender composition of occupations, pretty much 1:1. Teachers and social workers are underpaid because they are dominated by women. And, I'd argue so many of the 'BS jobs' are paid well or granted a higher status than they deserve, as you point out, because they're done by men, probably white ones. Curious how often you hang out with teachers and/or social workers. Pretty big statement to say the people going into these careers "are just not the best".
Kara — I didn’t open that thread of the discussion but you’re absolutely right that’s an important factor (at least on the gender spread). As to the not the best comment — college application demographic data shows this when comparing schools of social work with schools of engineering, for instance. We could question if those tests may be testing the wrong thing, but none the less… And as for how much time hanging out with social workers and teachers, both a lot and probably not enough. :-)
I think this is 100% true, although as the daughter of two medical doctors, the medical profession seems to me to be an interesting counterexample. There's not a ton of advancement for doctors and nurses (unless you move into administration/biz side), but generally these roles are pretty well paid.
100% agree with your point overall, have just started to pay more attention to how different medicine is from my own field (comms) as I reach mid-career and my parents seem utterly baffled by the career ladder, lol.
Lol at people calling Pasta Louise South Brooklyn's Olive Garden when that title clearly belongs to Cafe Spaghetti. No hate on Sal – I love Swooney's and while CS's not for me, people want and love that vibe. Very bummed to hear about Ladybird, though Park Slope online message boards tend to be an incredibly unreliable source of information so I’m kind of skeptical about how much Pasta Louise was actually involved in their lease.
There are obviously better Italian places in the general neighborhoods, but I actually think Pasta Louise is good and reliable if you just want a fat bowl of pasta made well and can't wait for or schlep to Rucola. I genuinely love their cacio e pepe. The owner was big in the revitalization of downtown Oakland in the early 2010s when I lived there, so I'm fond of her – many nights out in my early twenties began at her restaurant there, Homeroom. Her style has never gone for "authentic," but instead has always gone for (and I'd say succeeds at) comforting and affordable. Which I think is fine, given we're not in Rome and there ARE more authentic options around.
David’s interview was great! I had no idea the breadth of American dynamism and I didn’t have much context of the risks we face distracting ourselves with our BS corporate jobs. What do you think it’s going to take for us to culturally flip our perspective towards a different kind of American dream? How can we reinforce the importance of manufacturing etc?
Also how do you think about public education in the context of American Dynamism???
In many ways, American Dynamism is about preserving, enhancing, and expanding the American Dream. To me, the American Dream boils down, at the most basic level, to have the ability to own a good home in a safe neighborhood with a good job that's a short commute away and good schools for their kids, and the ability for your children to have a better life than the one you had. That's it. So there is no such thing as American Dynamism OR the American Dream without amazing public education. Easier said than done, I know. :-)
I am SO fascinated by the WSJ article about TikTok influencing financial feelings of dread- not only that, but as a graduating senior in college, I have seen this weird and completely unrealistic mindset that all graduates should be thriving immediately postgrad, with enough money from their first jobs ever to buy expensive drinks to instagram, expensive apartments to instagram, expensive Revolve dresses to instagram... you get the drift. TikTok and IG IMO have almost made "the struggle/grind" an unflattering, not-to-be-spoken-of thing. I was so shocked to learn that so many of the girls I've seen seemingly living it up postgrad have DEBT from SHOPPING. I don't have TikTok, so I largely see this play out on Instagram, but nonetheless this is a conversation I have had with my parents and friends and I think it ties in perfectly with the fact that todays day and age is the best and most safe time to live in history, and yet social media portrays the exact opposite. Social media has constantly been said to be fake and not real, but what it's doing is creating a false reality that people begin to live in as opposed to the real world. So interesting (and scary)!
If it makes you feel more sane, the year after I graduated I worked at New York Magazine, only ate oatmeal and ramen, was constantly walking my loose change to the Whole Foods coin machine (don't know if it's still there) and once had to get out of a cab from a guy's apartment uptown the morning after I slept over because I realized I couldn't pay the fare.
I also didn't have a credit card until a few years ago -- THANK GOD.
People who thrive have content that performs better. It's a chicken/egg situation. So of course we see that on our newsfeed more than like... normal job, normal income, normal mental health state.
Love this- oatmeal for dinner always! Great point about content because I definitely agree, and then I think it’s trickling down into “normal” girls who think they also need to perpetuate influencers which is when it becomes more concerning I think! I could talk for hours about this, like how I’m always trying to convince people to be babysitting on the side (nontaxable money, easy, flexible hours, eating other people’s food) and for some reason it’s seen as like a failure to do this lol
I've been wondering about this in regard to what seems to me like unrealistic expectations about which NYC neighborhoods post-grads should be able to afford and live in! So many people I know who are under 27 in NYC feel like they have to live in the LES, West Village, East Village, and feel like it's a personal failing when they can't afford it. Whereas after I graduated in 2013, it was normal/expected to live either very far north or east uptown, or out in BedStuy, Bushwick, Crown Heights, or South Slope. If people did live downtown, it was in a flex with four roommates and a living room subdivided by curtains. The financial pressure to be able to afford these neighborhoods must be crippling.
I think this was always the case, and it's just more in our faces now because people post about every aspect of their life in return for dopamine hits (views, likes, etc.)
Yes - and also because for a brief period the covid deals made these neighborhoods more accessible, prices / perceptions are totally distorted!
Great interview - David’s comments on BS jobs and career advancement. A lot of people I know are going through this existential crisis of advancement isn’t really what I want/this isn’t really advancement/this is BS but I still need a paycheck/this is BS and I need life fulfillment conundrum cycle and it’s insightful to read it written about in this framework. Also appreciate the commentary on importance of social life outside of work.
had to pause reading to talk shit about pasta louise. while their pre made to-go fresh pasta is great, i one time went there for lunch and ordered a lasagna. this lasagna had RAW TOMATOES INSIDE. i dont even know how thats possible. big slimy raw tomatoes inside an otherwise deeply mediocre lasagna. as a lasagna lover i was deeply offended. i haven't been back since, because those people are clearly psychos
So I also like their pre-made stuff, but Russo's and Posto Italiano are so much more likeable/better.
I'm sad about your lasagna disaster, sending prayers.
Pls share your third issue with BS jobs david!!! So curious
Okay -- It's really a longer conversation better for a podcast, because I'm just going to jump from A to Z in sharing this, and leave out the B - C - D of steps it takes to get to this conclusion, but... as BS jobs proliferate, they reinforce the "career advancement" myth and it takes high-qualified people out of the workforce for other jobs -- not just the machinist or blue-collar jobs I mentioned, but jobs that really benefit society when smart people fill them (like teachers, social workers, etc.). There's not a lot of "advancement" in those jobs. I think the lack of perceived advancement is a big reason (of many reasons) why those jobs are underpaid. It's because the vast majority of people going into them are just not the best – I'd argue we're actually pushing the least best people into those careers (which will have insane repercussions for all us over the coming years). If the smartest people were going into these critical jobs, the system would make room to pay them more. Most people think that those jobs are underpaid because we undervalue them, or that the best people don't go into them because they are underpaid, but I would argue that the best people don't go into them is *why* they are underpaid is just as valid. Again, SO MUCH causality assumed in my answer, but it's all related to the same phenomenon of how Gen Z kids want to be a Vice President on the 2nd day of work and constantly promoted and praised. Jobs like social work and teaching don't have the same kind of career progression and we (society) have taught everyone that jobs without advancement are worse than jobs where you can climb to a higher rung. And that is directly tied to the proliferation of bullshit jobs. Another thing we can blame the boomers for. They really are the worst generation. 🙂
David you are the king of this newsletter today.
I’ve worked at Google for 5+ years and both agree and disagree with your points! Working at a company this size, there are inevitably people who coast their way through. On the other hand, it’s an insanely competitive place to work and in my experience it’s genuinely rare that people slack off (and get away with it). Saying half of people don’t need to be there as their salaries would better serve shareholders stung a bit given the sweeping layoffs the company has had over the last two years that shareholders (myself included!!) have profited from. It is an incredible place to work and I am grateful for the opportunity, but we are not immune to the fact that Google is a mega corp and will do whatever means necessary to please shareholders - they are already well acclimated with this practice. Other than that I enjoyed your perspective on things :)
I wonder what people think about what I wrote about Google. I bet people who work at Google agree with me. 😅
Yikes. I understand you're skipping steps here but pay and status follow the gender composition of occupations, pretty much 1:1. Teachers and social workers are underpaid because they are dominated by women. And, I'd argue so many of the 'BS jobs' are paid well or granted a higher status than they deserve, as you point out, because they're done by men, probably white ones. Curious how often you hang out with teachers and/or social workers. Pretty big statement to say the people going into these careers "are just not the best".
Kara — I didn’t open that thread of the discussion but you’re absolutely right that’s an important factor (at least on the gender spread). As to the not the best comment — college application demographic data shows this when comparing schools of social work with schools of engineering, for instance. We could question if those tests may be testing the wrong thing, but none the less… And as for how much time hanging out with social workers and teachers, both a lot and probably not enough. :-)
I think this is 100% true, although as the daughter of two medical doctors, the medical profession seems to me to be an interesting counterexample. There's not a ton of advancement for doctors and nurses (unless you move into administration/biz side), but generally these roles are pretty well paid.
100% agree with your point overall, have just started to pay more attention to how different medicine is from my own field (comms) as I reach mid-career and my parents seem utterly baffled by the career ladder, lol.
I'll email him to hop in
Someone get this girl a pulitzer.
Lol at people calling Pasta Louise South Brooklyn's Olive Garden when that title clearly belongs to Cafe Spaghetti. No hate on Sal – I love Swooney's and while CS's not for me, people want and love that vibe. Very bummed to hear about Ladybird, though Park Slope online message boards tend to be an incredibly unreliable source of information so I’m kind of skeptical about how much Pasta Louise was actually involved in their lease.
There are obviously better Italian places in the general neighborhoods, but I actually think Pasta Louise is good and reliable if you just want a fat bowl of pasta made well and can't wait for or schlep to Rucola. I genuinely love their cacio e pepe. The owner was big in the revitalization of downtown Oakland in the early 2010s when I lived there, so I'm fond of her – many nights out in my early twenties began at her restaurant there, Homeroom. Her style has never gone for "authentic," but instead has always gone for (and I'd say succeeds at) comforting and affordable. Which I think is fine, given we're not in Rome and there ARE more authentic options around.
agreed -- cafe spaghetti is simply disgusting. pasta louise is fine! reliable. nothing special. neither here nor there and i can usually get a table!
Awesome interview, thanks David for taking the time
Agree! Loved the interview, thank you!
David’s interview was great! I had no idea the breadth of American dynamism and I didn’t have much context of the risks we face distracting ourselves with our BS corporate jobs. What do you think it’s going to take for us to culturally flip our perspective towards a different kind of American dream? How can we reinforce the importance of manufacturing etc?
Also how do you think about public education in the context of American Dynamism???
In many ways, American Dynamism is about preserving, enhancing, and expanding the American Dream. To me, the American Dream boils down, at the most basic level, to have the ability to own a good home in a safe neighborhood with a good job that's a short commute away and good schools for their kids, and the ability for your children to have a better life than the one you had. That's it. So there is no such thing as American Dynamism OR the American Dream without amazing public education. Easier said than done, I know. :-)